[Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Discussion:

Maurizio

2002-10-30 15:53:05 UTC

Hello,
i could see that mingw runtime libraries
are absolutely free from any kind of license,
but I could see also that the gcc compiler
is released under GPL license...
so...
If I decide to produce commercial software
using mingw, do I have to release the source also,
if requested???????

Thanx in advance helping me in this simple matter! :-)

Maurizio

Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)

2002-10-30 16:16:04 UTC

Permalink

The answer is "NO" just as long as you don't link with GPL'd source.

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: Maurizio [mailto:***@tiscalinet.it]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:51 AM
To: mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Hello,
i could see that mingw runtime libraries
are absolutely free from any kind of license,
but I could see also that the gcc compiler
is released under GPL license...
so...
If I decide to produce commercial software
using mingw, do I have to release the source also,
if requested???????

Thanx in advance helping me in this simple matter! :-)

Maurizio

Andrew Stadt

2002-10-30 16:37:06 UTC

Permalink

In the future, please post in plain text. Some readers have trouble quoting
html source.

The best place to go for a detailed and authorative answer to this question
would be the gcc website (gcc.gnu.org). However, for a non-authorative
answer to your query, please read on.

An excerpt from the GPL license:

Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered
by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program
is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its
contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been
made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the
Program does.

My interpretation of the above excerpt:

The 'output' of a program is generally considered to have the same copyright
as the programs input. In this case, your output (in this case, the
compiled program) would have the same copyright you apply to your source
code (the input). There are a couple of caveats here:
1. If you link to a GPL'd library, then you program falls under the GPL.
2. If the program puts a portion of itself into the output (e.g. bison,
libstdc++)
(It should be noted here that the last time I checked (two days ago) both
bison and libstdc++ have exemptions in their licence allowing this).

So what does this mean?

You can assign whatever licence you want to your own 'stand-alone' program.
The only time you have to start worrying is when you start linking in other
libraries, then you must check the licensing on those libraries.
Considering the number of libraries out there which have been released (or
re-released) under the LGPL, this shouldn't become too much of an issue.

Andrew.

-----Original Message-----
From: mingw-users-***@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:mingw-users-***@lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of Maurizio
Sent: October 30, 2002 12:51
To: mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Hello,
i could see that mingw runtime libraries
are absolutely free from any kind of license,
but I could see also that the gcc compiler
is released under GPL license...
so...
If I decide to produce commercial software
using mingw, do I have to release the source also,
if requested???????

Thanx in advance helping me in this simple matter! :-)

Maurizio

Oscar Fuentes

2002-10-30 16:45:03 UTC

Permalink

Post by Maurizio
Hello,
i could see that mingw runtime libraries
are absolutely free from any kind of license,
but I could see also that the gcc compiler
is released under GPL license...

GCC is GPL, but this doesn't mean that the executables it produces are
GPL too. GNU has no way to force the GPL on the executables GCC
produces. It could force the GPL through the accompanying libraries
(libstdc++, startup routines, etc) but it doesn't.

Post by Maurizio
so...
If I decide to produce commercial software
using mingw, do I have to release the source also,
if requested???????

No. You can use MinGW (including GCC) for closed source development.

This topic was discussed here a few days ago. Check the mailing list
archives if you want details, or browse the GNU website.

--
Oscar

Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)

2002-10-30 17:04:11 UTC

Permalink

Andrew,
It should be noted that when you say that it's safe to use
the libstdc++, that is true only as long as you use the shared version
of the libraries. In a static link the LGPL would virus just like the GPL
would.

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Stadt [mailto:***@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:37 AM
To: Maurizio; mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

In the future, please post in plain text. Some readers have trouble quoting
html source.

The best place to go for a detailed and authorative answer to this question
would be the gcc website (gcc.gnu.org). However, for a non-authorative
answer to your query, please read on.

An excerpt from the GPL license:

Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered
by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program
is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its
contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been
made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the
Program does.

My interpretation of the above excerpt:

The 'output' of a program is generally considered to have the same copyright
as the programs input. In this case, your output (in this case, the
compiled program) would have the same copyright you apply to your source
code (the input). There are a couple of caveats here:
1. If you link to a GPL'd library, then you program falls under the GPL.
2. If the program puts a portion of itself into the output (e.g. bison,
libstdc++)
(It should be noted here that the last time I checked (two days ago) both
bison and libstdc++ have exemptions in their licence allowing this).

So what does this mean?

You can assign whatever licence you want to your own 'stand-alone' program.
The only time you have to start worrying is when you start linking in other
libraries, then you must check the licensing on those libraries.
Considering the number of libraries out there which have been released (or
re-released) under the LGPL, this shouldn't become too much of an issue.

Andrew.

-----Original Message-----
From: mingw-users-***@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:mingw-users-***@lists.sourceforge.net]On Behalf Of Maurizio
Sent: October 30, 2002 12:51
To: mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Hello,
i could see that mingw runtime libraries
are absolutely free from any kind of license,
but I could see also that the gcc compiler
is released under GPL license...
so...
If I decide to produce commercial software
using mingw, do I have to release the source also,
if requested???????

Thanx in advance helping me in this simple matter! :-)

Maurizio

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Oscar Fuentes

2002-10-30 17:22:12 UTC

Permalink

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
Andrew,
It should be noted that when you say that it's safe to use
the libstdc++, that is true only as long as you use the shared version
of the libraries. In a static link the LGPL would virus just like the GPL
would.

--
Oscar

Andrew Stadt

2002-10-30 17:22:06 UTC

Permalink

I'd have to disagree with that statement, given the information provided
from their web-site.

On the page (see following link) they explicitly state that the license for
the library is GPL v2 - with a runtime exception.
http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/17_intro/license.html

A direct quote from the page (which I believe Oscar quoted in another
message a few days ago):

Q: I see. So, what restrictions are there on programs that use the library?
A: None. We encourage such programs to be released as open source, but we
won't punish you or sue you if you choose otherwise.

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
-----Original Message-----
Joel (N-Compaq)
Sent: October 30, 2002 14:03
Subject: RE: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing
Andrew,
It should be noted that when you say that it's safe to use
the libstdc++, that is true only as long as you use the shared version
of the libraries. In a static link the LGPL would virus just like the GPL
would.
Joel
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing
In the future, please post in plain text. Some readers have
trouble quoting
html source.
The best place to go for a detailed and authorative answer to this question
would be the gcc website (gcc.gnu.org). However, for a non-authorative
answer to your query, please read on.
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are
not covered
by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program
is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its
contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been
made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the
Program does.
The 'output' of a program is generally considered to have the same
copyright
as the programs input. In this case, your output (in this case, the
compiled program) would have the same copyright you apply to your source
1. If you link to a GPL'd library, then you program falls under the GPL.
2. If the program puts a portion of itself into the output (e.g. bison,
libstdc++)
(It should be noted here that the last time I checked (two days ago) both
bison and libstdc++ have exemptions in their licence allowing this).
So what does this mean?
You can assign whatever licence you want to your own 'stand-alone' program.
The only time you have to start worrying is when you start linking in other
libraries, then you must check the licensing on those libraries.
Considering the number of libraries out there which have been released (or
re-released) under the LGPL, this shouldn't become too much of an issue.
Andrew.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: October 30, 2002 12:51
Subject: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing
Hello,
i could see that mingw runtime libraries
are absolutely free from any kind of license,
but I could see also that the gcc compiler
is released under GPL license...
so...
If I decide to produce commercial software
using mingw, do I have to release the source also,
if requested???????
Thanx in advance helping me in this simple matter! :-)
Maurizio
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Andrew Stadt

2002-10-30 17:31:08 UTC

Permalink

Post by Andrew Stadt
On the page (see following link) they explicitly state that the license for
the library is GPL v2 - with a runtime exception.
http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/17_intro/license.html
A direct quote from the page (which I believe Oscar quoted in another
Q: I see. So, what restrictions are there on programs that use the library?
A: None. We encourage such programs to be released as open source, but we
won't punish you or sue you if you choose otherwise.

Here's a silly question, does my quote from the gcc website mean that the
message in which is was quoted now falls under the 'GNU Free Documentation
License version 1.1' ? ... and how does that affect any replies to that
message?

hmm... should probably ask the FSF that one.

Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)

2002-10-30 17:37:03 UTC

Permalink

I hear you, unfortuanatly the lawyers at Lockheed disagree... That's why we
can't use it, and also because we can't distribute extra shared libraries
beyond what's on the OS.

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Stadt [mailto:***@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 12:21 PM
To: Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq); mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

I'd have to disagree with that statement, given the information provided
from their web-site.

On the page (see following link) they explicitly state that the license for
the library is GPL v2 - with a runtime exception.
http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/17_intro/license.html

A direct quote from the page (which I believe Oscar quoted in another
message a few days ago):

Q: I see. So, what restrictions are there on programs that use the library?
A: None. We encourage such programs to be released as open source, but we
won't punish you or sue you if you choose otherwise.

Oscar Fuentes

2002-10-30 18:01:12 UTC

Permalink

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
I hear you, unfortuanatly the lawyers at Lockheed disagree... That's why we
can't use it, and also because we can't distribute extra shared libraries
beyond what's on the OS.

--
Oscar

Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)

2002-10-30 18:06:06 UTC

Permalink

This is the heading within the 'string' file in the gcc\include\c++\3.2
directory. The same preamble as in all the gcc include and source files.

Maybe I don't understand what this means?

Maybe you're thinking the last paragraph covers that?

Joel

// Copyright (C) 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
// Free Software Foundation, Inc.
//
// This file is part of the GNU ISO C++ Library. This library is free
// software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the
// terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the
// Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
// any later version.

// This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
// but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
// MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
// GNU General Public License for more details.

// You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along
// with this library; see the file COPYING. If not, write to the Free
// Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307,
// USA.

// As a special exception, you may use this file as part of a free software
// library without restriction. Specifically, if other files instantiate
// templates or use macros or inline functions from this file, or you
compile
// this file and link it with other files to produce an executable, this
// file does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by
// the GNU General Public License. This exception does not however
// invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be covered by
// the GNU General Public License.

//
// ISO C++ 14882: 21 Strings library
//

-----Original Message-----
From: Oscar Fuentes [mailto:***@wanadoo.es]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 12:22 PM
To: mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Wrong. To begin with, libstdc++ is not LGPL. You can use libstdc++ on
closed source projects without any restrictions for the resulting
executables. See

http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/17_intro/license.html
--
Oscar

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Oscar Fuentes

2002-10-30 19:07:03 UTC

Permalink

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
This is the heading within the 'string' file in the
gcc\include\c++\3.2 directory. The same preamble as in all the gcc
include and source files.
Maybe I don't understand what this means?
Maybe you're thinking the last paragraph covers that?

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that the part that says

// Specifically, if other files instantiate
// templates or use macros or inline functions from this file, or you compile
// this file and link it with other files to produce an executable, this
// file does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by
// the GNU General Public License

should clarify the issue beyond any doubt. I'm afraid that a lawyer
doesn't know well what 'to link', 'executable', 'template' or
'compile' means, though.

--
Oscar

Oscar Fuentes

2002-10-30 19:08:04 UTC

Permalink

--
Oscar

Earnie Boyd

2002-10-30 19:34:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
This is the heading within the 'string' file in the gcc\include\c++\3.2
directory. The same preamble as in all the gcc include and source files.
Maybe I don't understand what this means?
Maybe you're thinking the last paragraph covers that?

IANAL. What the preamble says is that you may use the header however
you wish as far as using the header as headers are meant to be used
without infecting any user of the header. If you distribute the stdc++
library then you must also distribute the source for the stdc++ library.
The use of the library is exempted from infecting the user so the
source that uses the library isn't in jeopardy. If you create a variant
of the library, including changing header files belonging to the
library, and those changes are necessary for your product to build then
the entire product is in jeopardy of being considered a "work based on
the Program".

Earnie.

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
Joel
// Copyright (C) 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002
// Free Software Foundation, Inc.
//
// This file is part of the GNU ISO C++ Library. This library is free
// software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the
// terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the
// Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
// any later version.
// This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
// but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
// MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
// GNU General Public License for more details.
// You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along
// with this library; see the file COPYING. If not, write to the Free
// Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307,
// USA.
// As a special exception, you may use this file as part of a free software
// library without restriction. Specifically, if other files instantiate
// templates or use macros or inline functions from this file, or you
compile
// this file and link it with other files to produce an executable, this
// file does not by itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by
// the GNU General Public License. This exception does not however
// invalidate any other reasons why the executable file might be covered by
// the GNU General Public License.
//
// ISO C++ 14882: 21 Strings library
//
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Oscar Fuentes

2002-10-30 20:27:03 UTC

Permalink

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
This is the heading within the 'string' file in the gcc\include\c++\3.2
directory. The same preamble as in all the gcc include and source files.
Maybe I don't understand what this means?
Maybe you're thinking the last paragraph covers that?

[snip]

If you create a variant of the library, including changing header
files belonging to the library, and those changes are necessary for
your product to build then the entire product is in jeopardy of
being considered a "work based on the Program".

Earnie,

Have you a reference for the claim above? My interpretation of the
libstdc++ license is that if you modify the sources, the original
license still applies. So, there is no risk of infection when you use
the modified library wrt distribution of executables and much less wrt
the license of the sources that uses the library.

--
Oscar

Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)

2002-10-30 19:33:02 UTC

Permalink

Your are most probably correct about the lawyers, I had to go a few rounds
with them just to start using Ant. And that license is way open...

-----Original Message-----
From: Oscar Fuentes [mailto:***@wanadoo.es]
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:01 PM
To: mingw-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Mingw-users] mingw licensing

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
I hear you, unfortuanatly the lawyers at Lockheed disagree... That's why

Post by Schuster, Joel (N-Compaq)
can't use it, and also because we can't distribute extra shared libraries
beyond what's on the OS.

This shows that those lawyers worries more about protecting their asses
than about doing their work correctly.

I know this sounds harsh, but it's what I think. Sorry.

[FYI: most open source libraries have a more liberal license than the
MS one that applies to OS dll's, meaning this that you can use the
library's source code and the resulting executable and do wathever you
want with them, except claiming you wrote the sources, or distribute
modified sources as if they were the original ones. AFAIK, you can't
use an official MS OS dll with the Wine windows clone, for instance].
--
Oscar

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